Interview involving Clare (Vice Principal), Steve (researcher), and Michael (researcher)

Clare's office, after 4pm, when the school was nearly empty.

When we arrive, there is the school police officer, possibly talking about the case that later comes up when Clare was phoned by someone from the head office. This part of the evening, which was not recorded, involved Clare telling us that this person from the head office violated protocol in not going directly to the principal with the complaint that the police officer had taken up the kid. All he had done, according to Clare, was take her by the arm, which he is permitted to do according to the set rules. So Clare described the person from head office to try to steamroll her, because she knew that the principal (Mistress Dean) was much harder than Clare would be. Clare then immediately went to see the Principal.

M: What we are trying to understand is the "middle management". So our focus is more down on the academy level. So we have been or Steve has to teachers and what they see as enabling and disabling things within the school. So and then we have been talking to Cristobal. It is a lot that intersection that we are trying to understand. And now we are coming up, really above this intersection that we are trying to understand.

((00::56, telephone rings, Clare's tax consultant seems to call. I turn the camera off.))

M: We wanted to get your perspective on the role of the coordinator, how you can, or how you can enable, and how you can support them, and how it looks from your perspective.

C: I think it is timely, it is interesting, I was just reading this Education Week article, it is probably 2002 that it came out. It was about theÐ the reform in education has focused on the classroom but the biggest problem for the teacher is what they call the administrivia. And it doesn't help, and it usually addsÐ and this article now talks about reform now among leaders. And I thought it for myself, the way we are trying to fashion it here anyway is ways to figure out in which I call it our agency can make it so that teachers can teach. So it is an interesting dilemma because everything is reactive, because you don't have an opportunity to sit down and think. Well let's sit down and let's do that and do that everything comes at you. It is like being assaulted every morning. And there are very bad systems in place. The rostering system. We end up being overwhelmed with students. The system for ordering books, it doesn't suit me, it becomes cumbersome. I know I ordered a lot of stuff last year, and we can't find it. And if I ask the operations officer, she goes, "I don't know." Well, "If you don't know, who does?" So that is all part of administrivia. So I am thinkingÑas weird as this may seemÑI am enjoying this tremendously. I like to think about what is wrong with it and why can't we make it work better. And working better for me means that when people are in the classroom, there is unfettered as nonsense as possible. So that then you really can say, "Let's look at that lesson plan and how is it working." "What's going on with your students, the work your students are handing in doesn't line up with your lesson plans. So let's figure out a way how to do it." And when you talk to teachers, now, the idea is, yes but I have so many kids in my room, I can't do this because this is wrong and I can't do this," okay, so that there is a negative atmosphere. And I think it is our job to find a way to change it. So at this level, at the principal and assistant principal, we certainly can do a lot, and then we are the ones who can tell the people above us. This is fine that you are asking this of people. But this is also that needs to happen, because they are not serviced well.

M: This is an interesting issue because this comes up at all levels. From the students right up to you,

C: Yes it does

M: rostering

C: It is one of the worst situations. Well, I thought we would solve it with this situation. They started out with the charters, small learning communities, now they are called academies. And we still haven't been able ((interruption, note being brought in)) we still haven't solved it. And I think one of the reasons we haven't solved it, we start planning early enough. because we don't know about money, we don't know about allocations. So it still keeps coming back. ((telephone is interrupting)) ((I turn off the camera because of, what turned out to be a call from the head office.))

M: We talked about you not being able to make certain decisions here pertaining to the rostering.

C: For instance, we need to know what our teacher allocation will be. Allocation is determined by the number of students in your school. So sometimes by February, things should be stable, we can start planning. But they give us our allocation based on May numbers, and May numbers could be down. A lot of, from what Mr. Logue has told me, a lot of times principals want to wait to plan.

S: And Mr. Logue is? Is he a teacher?

C: He is the roster chairperson, he is a history and social studies teacher, who has an administrative position. SO he teaches, because this year was rather difficult, he doesn't have a teaching assignment, but he normally teaches one class. One ninety-six minute class, then he has two free periods to do the rostering, because this is almost 2,000 students. This office is behind this area, right there behind the student files that's the filing system, and then behind that is Mr. Logue and then the school officer, the school operations officer and then the records person, the one who keeps track of high school requirements and credits.

M: Many people have raised issues about the rostering system, courses being inappropriate, students sitting in courses that are too difficult or too easy.

C: I don't know about that that much, I don't know that too difficult or too easy is the biggest problem. The biggest problem sometimes is that we have students in courses out of, sometimes out of sequenceÐ what this new administration has done and a lot of people don't like standards, they have put in for ninth grade transitional math, transitional English, algebra one and English one, and everybody has to take it, and everybody is doing the same thing. And what that will do for people in high school is that the algebra one students will not go on to geometry unless they got algebra one down. And going through summer school, if you flunk a year of algebra one, summer school is not going to help you. So they have designed it so that the students have all of this help, if they fail they are even doing an afternoon program, they are going to hire teachers. So it seems to me that that effort will correct this problem. And they will do it in math and English, which includes reading, naturally, and this should have a direct impact on the other areas, because that doesÐ you said earlier there being difficultÐ the fact is, geometry is difficult if you don't have a good foundation, it just is. And if you can't read, it is very difficult.

M: That is really what I meant, they have courses out of sequence

C: So there are a lot of people [teachers?] who are critical of what they [administration] are doing, but in effect this is the only way of doing it. Because there is no other way it is sporadic otherwise. You might have a great teacher [Steve] and you [Michael] might not. So you [S] will be ready for geometry and you [M] will be not. And by and large, most of the kids we are talking about are very educable, I mean, we got really bright kids. Their skill levels are just not where they should be. And it's been a dismal situation for a long time.

M: So how does Cristobal work with you to correct rostering complÐ or whatever he said he had a hundred?

C: Yea. We are going to still be dealing with for a couple more years. There areÐ if somebody had chemistry one with Cristobal last year with another teacher on the third floor, they really should go to chemistry two with Cristobal and not chemistry two with the other teacher. Probably pedagogy says that shouldn't matter. But there is a huge disparity in style and in how you engage the students. So that becomes a real issue. So the content isÐ well I am a little biased so I'll admit thatÐ but the kids learn science with Cristobal. And then they learn to sort of like science, and I obviously can't use other names, but on the other case, they might learn scientific facts and they could probably regurgitate a lot, of facts, but they are not going to have it to engage them, so that they really are starting to think about science as a doable, exciting thing. But they probably could pass a test. And you are sort of like this and like that [gestures balance] but that is the problem with somebody going from Cristobal in that direction.

S: Clare, can I just ask you a quick question then. How do you know this to be the case? On the one hand you can take test scores and they are better indicators for the outcomes about the students. Tell me something about that.

C: The students haveÐ It is really interesting to talk to the students, because they and they will tell youÐ because last year in particular there were two student teachers with Cristobal who were talking facts and periodic table and memorization and the kids would say, this doesn't make any sense because I don't know what I am doing with it. And I would say that is a perfect opening then for a teacher to say, "Whoo, what a great thing to build on what we are doing." And that was not happening, and that was the same in the other case. "You just need to memorize this, that's why, you need this." And there are people who would say, "that's right." It's like the multiplication table, you just need this body of information, put it into your head, but it doesn't work well with most of the kids that I have worked with. That they, they might memorize it but they won't really retain it as I would if they hook it on to something. So that's where we are sort of fashioning ourselves, because we are listening. We started this big time in the ninth grade initiative and then I and Cristobal started it a couple of years ago, where we went to the kids and we are asking them, what they knew, what interested them and what they knew about and how they connected with science. So instead of worrying so much about the scientific facts, what we did was to take what they knew and showed them where that was science. And then had them work that up as science. So they began to see science as part of their life rather than as a subject that they couldn't do. So that's the real thing. And kids react to it because they will do, they will say to you, "I understand what you are talking about." They may not like it any better, I mean, that's an individual preference, but what we found, they were less frustrated. They could be just as ornery as other kids, but they were less frustrated and you could get them on task faster. But they did understand because they at least what they were doing. And that's a big deal, instead of just saying, "I have to memorize this, and okay I have memorized it now what I do with it?" They memorize something else? So that'sÐ it's pretty much based on what students tell us and picking up the data to show that you know that there is real evidence is what Cristobal and I are trying to do. It's just that he and I are getting new jobs. I mean the disappointing part is that we couldn't finish what we wanted to do downstairs, because he and I were working together down in the basement. And then he and I went to the third floor and we were just beginning something again, and now we are different. But what we are still plugging along with the same philosophy.